Welcome back to the MFA Seminars Newsletter on Substack. This issue we have an interview to share, but first a piece of news: the MFA Seminars website (mfaseminars.org) has dramatically expanded! There are now pages that give a timeline for applying to MFA programs, provide a sampling of relevant resources, and break down the who, what, when, where, and why of it all. So check it out, and let us know what else should be there.
The main event for this month's issue is an interview with Jared McCormack, best known in these parts as the host of the excellent MFA Writers Podcast (MFAwriters.com). Almost every one of the 68 episodes to date features an emerging writer from an MFA program, talking about both their own writing and their experiences in the MFA.
Thanks for joining us Jared. The biography that accompanies your haunting flash fiction piece “Navy Man” in the Sonora Review (http://sonorareview.com/2022/03/26/navy-man-jared-mccormack/) lists you as a, “writer, teacher, activist, and podcaster.” By way of introduction, could you maybe give us a sentence or two about where you’re at with each of those activities these days?
Well, first off, thanks for reading “Navy Man.” I’ve had a couple of pieces published in print, including one recently in Pleiades, which is of course an exciting experience, but I love that this story, which means a lot to me, is available online where anyone who wants to read it can do so.
As far as an update on my writing, I established a pretty committed schedule when I was an MFA student, and I’ve stuck to that since graduating, writing for at least a couple of hours every morning. Although I’ve felt the commercial pull of writing a novel (which we are told over and over again we must write if we want to “make it”), my true passion lies in the short story, so that’s what I’m focused on at the moment.
My background is in education (I studied secondary English education as an undergrad), and I’ve taught students of all ages, from elementary school to the college level over the past twelve years or so. I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’m ever not teaching in some capacity or another. Since graduating from the MFA program, I’ve been teaching in the Digital Storytelling program at the University of Missouri. The classes I teach are essentially creative writing workshops, but the students are mostly writing for digital media. They’re filmmakers, video game writers, and podcasters, which is certainly different from prose, but the principles of storytelling remain the same. I’ll soon be teaching an audio storytelling class focused on podcasting.
As a graduate student, I co-founded an advocacy group at my school called the Graduate Rights Organization that fought for equal treatment for graduate students, especially international students and graduate student employees. Since I’m no longer a student, I’m no longer a member of that organization, but I like to think of my work on the podcast as a form of advocacy. We’re trying to make MFA programs more transparent for applicants and more equitable for current students. I like to think our listeners are less likely to have one of those infamous MFA nightmare experiences because they have a better idea what to look for in a program and what to expect. At least I hope that’s the case.
For your excellent MFA Writers podcast (MFAwriters.com), you’ve interviewed more than 50 writers over the past two-and-a-half years. So I have a few questions about that, starting with how you came to start the podcast?
When applying to MFA programs, I searched every corner of the internet for information, not just on individual programs but on the MFA experience in general. My background was not in creative writing. I took two creative writing classes as an undergraduate student. That was the extent of my workshop experience, and I really just felt a bit in the dark. At one point, I thought, “Hey, there must be a podcast in which people talk about these things. I mean, there’s a podcast for everything, right?” I looked, and there wasn’t one. So that was the first seed of my podcast. Then, in my MFA program at the University of Missouri-Kansas City, I had the opportunity to take a podcasting practicum with Whitney Terrell, who co-hosts, with V. V. Ganeshananthan, the Fiction/Non/Fiction podcast at LitHub. As part of that class, I created what eventually became the MFA Writers podcast.
How has your understanding of MFA programs evolved or changed over the time you've been doing the podcast?
While preparing my own MFA applications and scouring the internet for information, I read horror story after horror story about an “MFA industrial complex” that preyed on students. Judging by those accounts, MFA programs were cutthroat environments in which students competed with each other for the right to be a writer. Many people spoke of “surviving” their programs. And so, when I started the podcast, I expected to hear a lot of stories like those. But I haven’t. That’s been a surprise. That’s caused my view of MFA programs to evolve.
To be clear, I’m not denying those horror stories. Those experiences have existed, and still exist, in many places, especially for underrepresented students who find themselves in spaces not designed with them in mind. But I think programs know they need to do better. Faculties and student bodies are becoming more diverse. Funding opportunities are increasing. The Iowa workshop model is being questioned. And I’ve been pleasantly surprised to find that the vast majority of students seem to be having positive experiences. That doesn’t mean the work is done, however. We must continue to push programs to improve, for both current students and those who come next. But my view of MFA programs has changed for the better since starting the podcast, and I hope that this change reflects reality.
For people considering MFA programs, what would you highlight as some key things to think about, especially things that maybe tend to get overlooked?
Everyone talks about funding, but I think the details can get overlooked or at least glossed over. Not all “fully funded” programs are created equal. Some programs cover student fees, while others do not. Some provide health insurance. Others do not. The difference can sometimes be thousands of dollars a year. I also think applicants should think a bit more about the reality of lost wages. Let’s say you get into a fully funded program that provides a stipend of $25,000 a year. This is framed as if you are getting paid to get an MFA. Which, in a sense, you are. But most people, if they weren’t in a program, would be working. Let’s say you could get a job that pays you $40,000 a year. Then, that’s $15,000 a year you are losing by attending the above MFA program. Over the course of a three-year program, for example, that’s $45,000. So, from this perspective, you are really paying $45,000 to get that MFA. For some people, it’s worth that. For others, it’s not. But it’s important that everyone has the information to make that determination for themselves.
What kind of response have you gotten to the podcast? How does it compare with what you expected?
I’m not sure what I expected. I wouldn’t have done it if I didn’t think people would want the information and listen, but I am surprised by how positive the response has been from listeners! People reach out to us (me and my co-producer, Hanamori Skoblow) all the time and tell us how helpful the podcast was to them when applying. Some past guests now work in MFA programs and they say prospective students come in talking about it. Some of the new guests are fans who listened in the early days when they were applying to programs. I remember how stressful the application process was, so it’s nice to think we’re helping to make that a little more bearable.
What is your take on the ecosystem that has grown up around MFA programs in creative writing? There’s your podcast, of course, but then also an increasing number of online courses specifically for writers applying to MFAs, editors marketing services specifically for MFA applicants, and so forth.
We live in a capitalist society. Where there’s money, there will always be people, organizations, and businesses trying to get their hands on it. And there is a hell of a lot of money being spent on MFA programs. So that stuff doesn’t surprise me. The fear, of course, is that these businesses might take advantage of people. Hopefully, that’s not the case. And hopefully, we are creating spaces where people who don’t have the financial flexibility to take advantage of those types of resources are still able to pursue an MFA on their merits if they wish to. My goal is, and has always been, to provide a platform for emerging writers to get their names out there, to make MFA programs more transparent, and to give listeners the information they need to make their own decisions. Our view is that this information should be freely accessible. That said, we’re extremely grateful when listeners donate to support the podcast at buymeacoffee.com/mfawriters, and eventually we hope to find a way to fund our work on a more consistent basis, but not if it compromises those intended goals.
Thank you for your time Jared, and for creating such a valuable and ongoing resource with the MFA Writers podcast (MFAwriters.com).